THIS IS THE THIRD IN A SERIES OF INTERVIEWS WITH TRAINING ASSOCIATES/TRAINING ELDERS: Nico Amador interviews Judith Jones, a Training Elder with Training for Change.

Judith C. Jones, Ph.D. grew up in Philadelphia, received her doctorate in Political Science from Atlanta University and has taught at Penn State University since 1985 and at Philadelphia University. Judith is also co-author of Two Voices from the Front Line: A Conversation about Race in the Classroom, an article found in the award winning anthology Race in the College Classroom, published by Rutgers University Press. She has led diversity and conflict workshops for a diverse client base that includes educational institutions, nonprofit organizations, and government agencies at the federal, state and local level.

You have spent much of your career as a professor, teaching at the university level. What motivated you to become an educator?

I had two inspirations. My eighth grade teacher Mrs. Goldberg, fabulous teacher, really got me interested in history. Just the way she engaged us as eighth graders -- wow. It was great.

I suppose choosing education -- in other words getting a degree, was something that was part of the family culture. Even though I was the first, we were always hopeful that I would get through. I went into education mainly because I thought I could make a difference teaching, particularly university-level. Teaching young adults mainly. Somehow, I could be a role-model and inspiration. That was my thought. The reality was totally different.

I said two-- The other was when I was in graduate school. I had a professor from the Caribbean. Again, just the way he was able to engage graduate students in the study of political science. It was just wow -- this is mind-blowing. It's really difficult to motivate young people in political science.

I said to myself, I would love to be able to do something like this.

When did you start getting into training outside of the classroom?

Actually, the thought of training was linked to my disappointed that I wasn't trained on how to teach with any enthusiasm. There was no guidance or roadmap about how to be effective in the classroom. I had this naive notion that if I had these skills as a trainer I would be able to transfer these skills into the classroom. I was looking for modalities that would help me be more effective in the classroom.

In a more pragmatic level, I thought I teach and after that career is over, why not be a trainer? I stumbled around different programs trying to get skills that would lay the ground work for me to train people outside of the classroom.

A lot of your training work has been focused on diversity and group conflict. What are the tools or concepts on how you facilitate around those issues that you think have been helpful?

My consciousness was raised when I found Training for Change and took the Training for Social Action Trainers. I began to realize that there were tools that could be used in diverse groups, specifically around racism and gender issues, etc.

Even though I had been exposed to other programs and had some exposure to group dynamics and diversity works with other approaches, it was the TSAT that raised my awareness about how to go into a group and help them work through these issues.

I really like the "We/Not We" or whatever we call it that we picked up from process work. If groups could get that tool, it's amazing how they transform and become a high-efficiency group and become really empowered.

Gosh. What else do I like? I like the concentric circles we use when we are trying to get people to understand the power of elicitive questions. Again, it's amazing that if a group gets that concept of elicitive questions then the group becomes more informed.

I think elicitive questions allows individuals and/or groups to probe into areas with curiosity that doesn't lead to defensiveness. I think it removes the automatic defense mechanisms that people raise if they are asked questions that they are uncomfortable with. Or asking questions that they are uncomfortable with -- or the person that they are asking is uncomfortable with.

It seems to not provoke as much defensiveness. If crafted with interest and non-judgment and curiosity. I want to know this, raised in an elicitive way. Then 9 times out of 10 you'll get a response that then you can lead with into deeper questions. Especially when you “peel the onion” so to speak.

The other tool I like is the 1 or 2 minute introductions. If people genuinely get up there and do something, you get so much information. So much can be revealed about them and the group as a whole. I have used that in settings outside of social action groups and it gets people to talk about themselves in a way that they don't normally do.

Can you say a little bit about the personal work or personal growth that you have had to do in order to stay grounded as a trainer?

Well. I had to believe. I had to believe I was good enough. I had to work through the limiting beliefs I had about being good enough to be in front of the room.

With that, being able to survive being attacked -- for whatever reason that leaders get attacked. Being able to understand that it wasn't necessarily anything to do with me, or my gender, or my racial characteristics, just anything.

Those two areas are where I had to do the most work: working through the self-limitning belief and then figuring out how to get through the issue of being attacked.

What helped you overcome some of those beliefs or self-limiting beliefs?

That's a good question! Well I just had to identify those early childhood messages about "who do you think you are?" or "you can't be too big for your britches,” all those sayings that particularly people from the South -- my family had Southern roots. Being female, the expectation was not that I would shine. I would be help, or a maid and if not, I would just be in a position to survive -- not necessarily get big, just survive.

Growing up in the early 50s there was the idea that black children really were at risk, particularly black boys. They still are, but because of the segregation there were very real barriers to actually living to be an adult.

So those fears were somehow translated and transferred to me in reminders that I had to think about the fact that I was black. I had to think about survival.

And then just this whole thing about “who do you think you are?” I heard that a lot and that could have been because I was somewhat bright, it was admired on one hand and punished on the other. I had to work through that.

And working through that starting when you were 40 -- you don't want to do that. But the transformational work that Training for Change does provided me a model. I could do it in a space that was safe. I had been in some other places where you did transformational work and people would take advantage, where the leadership would take advantage. The difference between the work that I did outside of TFC is that I didn't feel safe to really look at myself. But at TFC I felt safe to be able to do that work.

This is the first time I have ever actually talked about this. Wow.

Do you have a favorite story about how you have used your role as a trainer to help someone else overcome a self-limiting belief?

I don't have one story. But what comes to mind is I remember the first time I saw George do transformational work and I said there was no way I would do that work. Right away I set up a self-limting belief that I wasn’t good enough to do that work. But doing so much transformational training and advanced training of trainer work helped.

I don't know when it happened, but I think my “a-ha” happened. I remember the first time I witnessed someone worked through their self-limiting belief and I gave them a hand with it.

It's humbling, truly humbling to be a part of someone peeling their onion. So no, I don't have one in particular, so I think it’s just that ability to help people peel their onion, that's what comes to mind when I think of transformational work.

What things currently motivate you or that you find fulfilling in your training work right now?

Right now I'm sort of in a transitional phase in my life. I'm in the process of assessing what I'm going to do with respect to training.

With that in mind, I think particularly when I'm working with actual training settings, I really do like the idea of mentoring someone into the process of doing a training. Not necessarily being an on-going mentor. But if you're doing a TSAT or ADTOT, being able to support someone is where I think I'm using the training skills that I have developed. So it's not so much in front of the room, it's behind the scenes where I'm applying my training skills.

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